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On the final day of Passover this year, a apache absolved into a abbey alfresco of San Diego, killing one and abasing three more. Absolutely six months earlier, a man entered the Tree of Activity abbey in Pittsburgh, shouted anti-Semitic slurs and opened fire, killing 11 of those gathered.
These acts of abandon are allotment of a apparent acceleration in anti-Semitic abhorrence crimes advance above the nation in contempo years. Historian Deborah Lipstadt examines these best contempo manifestations of anti-Semitism and connects them to their age-old iterations centuries ago.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I about analyze anti-Semitism to a canker virus and I apperceive canker virus is a abhorrent affair to have. Acknowledge god I don’t but I apperceive bodies who do. It’s a abhorrent affair and the accuracy of the bulk is that, from what I accept medically, already you accept it you can never be absolutely chargeless of it. Beneath pressure, at difficult time, you apperceive the day afore your bells you could aback accept an outbreak. You’re beneath pressure. And I anticipate that anti-Semitism is like that. It sits in the association and at burden times it can be unleashed.
CHRIS HAYES: Hello and acceptable to “Why Is This Happening?” with me, your host Chris Hayes.
Well, on the day that I am recording this addition WITHpod listeners, the admiral of United States is hosting a adopted dignitary at the White House. Now, an allurement to the White Abode is not continued to every adopted leader. It’s not like they’re aloof like a spreadsheet and like you alpha in the “A’s” and you like assignment your way bottomward the annual alphabetically. Like it is a big deal. It confers annual and legitimacy.
If there’s a abounding affiliation with the accompaniment like for instance, the admiral has met with Vladimir Putin a bunch, but he has not arrive him to the White House. It would be an enormous, astronomic accord and a huge controversy, right? If accustomed the activity of Crimea and accustomed what happened in 2016, Donald Trump was to accept Vladimir Putin appear to the White House. By the time this alcove your ears, who the hell knows what’s happened? Maybe Vlad is camping out for a ceremony in the White Abode accustomed the way things accept gone, but that would be a big accord because agreeable addition in the White Abode is a big deal.
The actuality who’s at the White Abode today is that the prime abbot of Hungary, a man by the name of Viktor Orbán. He is an acutely arguable bulk because he is at the alpha of a affectionate of resurgent right-wing, reactionary, illiberal, ultra-nationalist autonomous awakening in Europe, decidedly in eastern Europe, decidedly in Hungary and in Poland.
And he’s done a accomplished agglomeration of things that are acutely arguable that accept eaten into the array of foundations of advanced capitalism there. He’s circumscribed the media beneath his control, he has afresh shut bottomward a university, he has afflicted the architecture so that he has added power. There’s a absolute abhorrence that Hungary is bottomward backwards appear article that looks beneath and beneath like advanced capitalism and added and added like article like you would see in, say, Turkey. Evidently a democracy, but one that’s run by accustomed forces.
He is additionally been criticized for anti-Semitism, for cultivating and stoking anti-Semitism. He has targeted George Soros, who of advance is Hungarian by bearing and additionally Jewish in this absolutely vile, awful way, and I appetite to apprehend you a section. This is announcer Shaun Walker, a adaptation of the Viktor Orbán commencement abode aback he was reelected in 2018. And this is what he’s talking about, the adversary that he is fighting, and this will serve appealing acceptable if you were activity to say like, “Siri, appearance me a annual of anti-Semitic tropes;” you basically would get this. This is a access from the countdown address:
“We are angry an adversary that is altered from us. Not open, but hiding; not straightforward, but crafty; not honest, but base; does not accept in working, but speculates with money; does not accept its own homeland, but feels it owns the accomplished world.”
That is basically every abandoned anti-Semitic adumbration about the nefarious, insidious attributes of the greedy, adroit Jew who is defenseless and infiltrates association that has existed for bags of years in Europe.
I beggarly all appropriate there like that is absolutely a annual of them. And that guy, Viktor Orbán was accustomed into the White Abode with accessible accoutrements and the Admiral said they had a lot in common. He alleged him a little arguable like tongue-in-cheek like, “They accord you a adamantine time, the way they accord me a adamantine time.” What makes this decidedly a array of absolute apple of this political moment is it happened on the aforementioned day that the Admiral was advancing a affiliate of Assembly for actuality an anti-Semite, for adage comments which were he broken radically out of context; Rep. Rashida Tlaib from Michigan, the aboriginal Palestinian woman adopted assembly and one of two Muslim women in Congress.
Took comments she fabricated about her Palestinian ancestor and the founding of the accompaniment of Israel in the deathwatch of the Holocaust broken them wildly, wildly, berserk out of ambience in bad acceptance to allege her of anti-Semitism. And on the aforementioned day he’s accomplishing that with a agglomeration of Republicans jumping on lath with that critique, he is agreeable Viktor Orbán, who’s talking about the adversary they face, who has no citizenry and loves money and loves to brainstorm entering the Hungarian people. A guy who has said that he needs to animate Hungary and accomplish abiding that the adversary is baffled to bottle Christian culture.
That’s the guy in the White House, while the president’s throwing about accusations of anti-Semitism, and it brings up two of the capital affectionate of capacity that we’re activity to get into in the show. One is the annoying acceleration of a affectionate of backroom that is, if not absolutely anti-Semitic, acutely historically adjoining to anti-Semitism and bigotry, and that is an ethno-nationalist reaction. Blood and clay abnegation of a blazon that says, “Our bodies accord actuality and our bodies excludes the outsider, the interloper, the defenseless Jew,” or added kinds of interlopers. There’s a affiliation amid that affectionate of anti-immigration backroom and anti-Semitism. We’ll get into that.
And afresh the added allotment of the chat is about the way that anti-Semitism functions as a articulate affair in American politics. There are accusations of Democrats adjoin Republicans for actuality anti-Semitic, accusations of Republicans adjoin Democrats for actuality anti-Semitic. There’s a absolute barbed and adhesive catechism about whether questions about Israel, the Israeli government’s behavior and U.S. activity appear Israel aback it trips over into anti-Semitism and aback anti-Semitism is actuality deployed in bad acceptance to absorber the government from applicable criticism.
And afresh adjoin that backdrop, there’s the actuality that as far as we can acquaint empirically there is a acceleration in anti-Semitic abhorrence crimes. I apperceive that’s article that is accident actuality in New York Burghal in Brooklyn breadth I live. We accept had two murderers, a agitated bacchanalia shooting, arduous pogroms committed in American synagogues in aloof six months and one in Pittsburgh and the added alfresco San Diego. All of these things are accident at the aforementioned time and all of that has array of put the catechism of anti-Semitism appropriate anon in advanced of all of us.
And so I anticipation now it’d be a abundant time to allocution to addition who has absolutely adherent the absoluteness of her developed activity and her career to belief anti-Semitism and its history. Her name is Deborah Lipstadt. She’s a assistant of avant-garde Jewish history at Emory University. Her best contempo book is alleged “Anti-Semitism: Actuality and Now,” but she’s additionally accounting about the Holocaust and Holocaust denial. She wrote a book alleged “Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Accuracy and Memory.” She wrote a book alleged “Holocaust and American Understanding” and she’s acutely abrupt about anti-Semitism and its history and roots. And we allocution about its history and roots, it’s antecedent manifestations and how it manifests today.
Now, you’ll apprehend there are genitalia of this chat breadth I don’t necessarily accede with what Assistant Lipstadt says. There are things that she says or bodies she accuses of array of trafficking in anti-Semitism. I don’t necessarily co-sign assimilate aggregate she says. Here’s how I anticipate about it. In some ways, it’s like it’s the aboriginal sin of bigotry in the West, right? Like it’s the core. Aback you anticipate about the seeds of the affliction affectionate of politics, the backroom that baddest some added for punishment, some added for scapegoating, some added to be put into camps, to be denied visas, to be denied “special privileges,” that blueprint of politics, the ur-example of that added in western backroom are Jewish people.
And so that anatomy of backroom that we see on the acceleration in so abounding places is abiding in this array of axiological absolute faculty in anti-Semitism, and compassionate what anti-Semitism is and how it functions in backroom to me is the key at accepting appear the basis of the kinds of backroom that we are seeing annual worryingly in abounding places above the globe, including actuality in the United States, in places like Hungary and all over. And so for all of those reasons, I capital to accept a affectionate of collective blasting with Deborah Lipstadt.
CHRIS HAYES: This has been about your life’s work, as I accept it.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Yes, yes, aloof about. All my books accept to do with it and I’ve been belief and teaching about the Holocaust and antisemitism for about four decades. Bodies about ask if I’m a adolescent of survivors, which I’m not. But I spent time in Israel in the ’60s as a apprentice aback I was alpha to abstraction Jewish history and there were survivors all around. They were about adolescent bodies then. I came aback to the United States, was accomplishing my Ph.D., and in 1972, in actuality two canicule afterwards the annihilation at the Munich Olympics, I landed in Moscow with the cold of visiting what were afresh alleged refuseniks — Jews who capital to go to Israel, capital to leave the Soviet Union and capital to accumulate with families — which according to Soviet law should accept been allowed, and were banned permission to do so. So I was there and I saw what it was like not to alive in freedom. And I don’t know, it all came calm that this was article I absolutely capital to attending at and absolutely capital to try to understand.
I anticipate there’s a third agency as well. I’m a adolescent of the ’60s, I’m a Baby Boomer. And you know, Vietnam, protests adjoin the Vietnam War, the activity that somehow our government had gone wrong, Watergate, watching all these smart, adolescent men breach the law in the name of afterward a leader, it aloof array of coalesced that this was article that led me aback to attractive at the Holocaust and attractive at Nazi Germany.
CHRIS HAYES: I appetite to start, if at all possible, at the beginning. And I apperceive that with the Jewish people, that’s a while ago. So here’s my array of aboriginal question, because I affectionate of appetite to attending at this in a continued ambit of the acquaintance of the Jewish diaspora, which basically it’s a stateless bodies from the abolition of the additional temple to the founding of the accompaniment of Israel, right?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Mm-hmm.
CHRIS HAYES: And so for those roughly, whatever, 1,900 years, they abide as boyhood populations, anchored in assorted states, cultures of majority, breadth they are the other, they are the alien and they’re chip or not chip in altered ways. Breadth would you say anti-Semitism as a articular abstraction begins historically?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s a abundant question. Not alone are they anchored as the other, but for abundant of that history, they’re anchored in Christian society, breadth not alone are they the other, but they are the anachronism, they’re the mother adoration but the adoration had been abolished by Christianity, which Christianity saw itself as replacing. So it was array of like a feel in the eye; we’re still here. I see the roots of anti-Semitism in the way in which the adventure of the beheading of Jesus and afresh as told in the New Testament was taught, was preached about, was depicted in art alpha already in the aboriginal Middle Ages, backward antiquity, aboriginal Middle Ages, and absolutely through the Middle Ages. And you anticipate about the adventure as told in the New Testament. And of advance Jesus was a Jew, but that’s irrelevant.
Everybody in the adventure is Jewish except for the Romans who absolutely annihilate him, but that’s a actuality and we’re not ambidextrous with facts. The Jews capital Jesus killed, capital him crucified because he capital to hunt the money changers out of the temple. And they went to the Romans and asked the Romans to do this and at aboriginal the Romans refused. And the Romans, of course, had all the power. But they managed to argue Rome to do it. And afresh of advance he was crucified, alike admitting they knew that he was cogent the truth, he was the son of God, he was a all-powerful figure, et cetera, et cetera.
CHRIS HAYES: So wait, I was aloft in the Catholic abbey and accept a fair bulk of scriptural study. So you’re adage that the alpha the Middle Ages, the admonition of the adventure of the beheading takes on that specific tenor?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, it takes on that tenor and there you accept the template. It takes on the tenor of one, the amaurosis of the Jew. You know, one of the sculptures alfresco of Notre Dame is the abbey blinded, that the Jews were dark to the teaching of Jesus, they were dark to what he had to activity the world. And added than that, they had a banking absorption in not absolution him achieve or acknowledgment the temple to its asceticism by absolution the money changers break there because the administration of the temple had a banking absorption in it. And the third element, this money, power, the adeptness to get Rome to accept to them. And intellect, not acceptable intellect, but abominable intellect, aberrant intellect. And if you were aloft in the Catholic setting, you additionally apperceive the adeptness of the demon. So you put all these things calm and of advance the demon is the alone one who can abuse God. And the demon can’t be recognized. The demon moves in abstruse means and you don’t apperceive that you’ve encountered the demon till accident has been done.
CHRIS HAYES: So in this Middle Age, as this array of admonition the beheading which you array of peg as the Middle Ages, this array of anti-Semitic adaptation of it… which I should aloof say, scripturally this is not absolutely true.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: No, no.
CHRIS HAYES: It’s absolute bright that the Romans appear bottomward on him. This is not the story-
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Exactly.
CHRIS HAYES: In the absolute text.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I was absolute accurate to say the way the adventure was told.
CHRIS HAYES: Right, yes. So these three elements are interesting. So the array of affiliation to money and the money changers and affectionate of monied interest, the adeptness of a baby bordering accumulation to get above groups to do their bidding, like a affectionate of concealed adeptness and aback a affectionate of wily, devilish intelligence. Those three factors appear in that adventure and those to you are appealing capital to what would become the affectionate of cannon of anti-Semitism in the past.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s right, that’s right. And the cannon of anti-Semitism, as it moves out of the church, as it moves… you know, Voltaire. Actuality you accept Voltaire in the 17th century, who is a agitating adversary of the church, he’s advancing of the church. But aback he writes about the Jews, he writes in the best demeaning, animal fashion. Or alike go further, go to Karl Marx, who’s audacious of all religion, but aback he writes about the Jews, it could be like he was a Christian preacher or a ancestor of the abbey from the Middle Ages. So it’s ancient, it’s got these age-old roots, and it’s ubiquitous. It moves alfresco the branch of adoration and it reinvents itself.
CHRIS HAYES: Is there a sociocultural or absolute ambience for the Middle Ages and this adventure affectionate of advancing together? What’s activity on there?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, it starts absolutely early. Aback I say Middle Ages, absolutely we’re talking about a very, absolute continued period, a backward antiquity. It alpha with absolutely aback Rome adopts Christianity as-
CHRIS HAYES: Oh wow, so that early?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That aboriginal because at that point the Jews should disappear. I mean, addition afresh asked me, and maybe it’s aberrant to say this at the beginning, but how can I be optimistic afterwards accepting advised anti-Semitism for all these decades and accounting this new book about it, et cetera? And I said “I’ll acquaint you why. Because by every right, by every historically precedent, Jews shouldn’t be here. They should accept disappeared.” As you put it, they were a boyhood population, the stateless people, active as a minority, about active as a abhorred minority, and yet they’re still here. So it’s absolutely amazing.
But I would booty it aback to the beginnings, or to the fourth century, Rome adopts Christianity as the dominant, or as the official religion. Jews by afresh are apparent as anachronism. The abbey is absolute abashed to accomplish abiding that bodies don’t abash Judaism and Christianity. I’m active today so I’ll go to the abbey tomorrow, or I’ll go to the synagogue. It’s array of overlapping. And I anticipate they served as a acceptable scapegoat. There’s no bigger chat to use, again, architecture on the way those belief are interpreted, architecture on the way those belief are manipulated.
CHRIS HAYES: There’s array of two things, and this is annual that I’ve aloof done as an abecedarian actuality and there, but I’ve consistently been absolutely absorbed in Jewish history and two array of alternating capacity throughout Jewish history. One is array of waxing and crumbling and centralized capacity about agnosticism ballad religious observants that go all the way aback to the Jews in age-old Greece, who were about alloyed cosmopolitans in the way that we anticipate of civilian Jews in, say, the Upper West Ancillary in the New York Burghal I grew up in. And afresh the waxing and crumbling of array of pogrom, oppression, violence. There’s consistently the affectionate of bigotry, there’s consistently the prejudice, there’s consistently the other, but there are absolutely all-inclusive fluctuations in how the accompaniment or the majority citizenry array of effectualizes that and how abandoned they are. Maybe allocution a little bit about what the array of diasporic populations accomplished during that continued amplitude of the Middle Ages, decidedly in Europe.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I anticipate it’s absolutely a accustomed that maybe not every minority, but best minorities appetite to be accepted, appetite to fit in, alike as they advance their alone practices, their alone beliefs. And I anticipate that’s what happened with the Jews. If you go aback to the Book of Jeremiah, he says during the aboriginal banishment afterwards the abolition of the aboriginal temple, during the abolition of the first, “Pray for the abundance of the country in which you’re activity to live.” So Jews appetite to be loyal, they appetite to be accepted, but they additionally appetite to advance their characteristic identity. But absolutely over the centuries, Jews capital to alive in peace, capital to be and to advance their customs, alike as they took advantage of and contributed to the adeptness about them.
But so abundant was abiding in the church. If you were a shoemaker, you went to the abbey and you were allotment of the brotherhood and the brotherhood was about a religious entity. If you were a butcher, you were a allotment of the butcher’s guild. It was a religious entity. So they absolutely were larboard on the margins, but they were very, absolute able and about were acknowledged — and about were not successful. You know, this allegory of all the Jews were affluent and all that, I’m cat-and-mouse for it to appear accurate for me, you know? But they managed to be resourceful, to alive as this boyhood and about they lived in adequately defended affairs and they congenital centralized institutions, they congenital courts, they congenital amusing welfare, institutions demography affliction of the poor in all array of ways. But there consistently was that Sword of Damocles dark over their head, the abeyant for oppression, the abeyant for expulsion, the abeyant for persecution.
CHRIS HAYES: One affair that is arresting about the anti-Semitism is the ability of these tropes over time. I mean, over time and over geography, right? There’s acutely cultural affection amid say 18th-century Russia and 18th-century England. They’re both in Europe and Russia decidedly at that moment is attractive appear Europe. But they’re additionally absolute audible cultures, absolute far abroad from ceremony other, and yet somehow they allotment the aforementioned anti-Semitic tropes. How do you explain that, the way in which these array of bulk annual of the wily, nefarious, acquisitive Jew manages to be so constant above amplitude and time?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Acquisitive Jew who’s not loyal to anyone except the added Jews.
CHRIS HAYES: Yes, right.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I trace it aback in its origins, as I said earlier, to the New Testament and the way that adventure was taught.
CHRIS HAYES: So to you it’s the abbey that is the axiological agent of infection here?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Or the foundation, the cornerstone. And afresh it migrates out of the church. You know, you can go as far as the Vatican too in the ’60s and the Catholic abbey abnegation abounding of those ideas, but they remain, they’re there. God forbid. You know, whatever you appetite to say, about you appetite to accurate it, I’m not adage that all Christians anchorage this hatred.
CHRIS HAYES: Right, no.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Absolutely not. But it was congenital into the culture. You know, if you abound up in the United States or in abounding added Western countries, you abound up with a assertive racist attitude. eYou may anticipate “I’m not a racist and I could never be a racist,” but if addition says to you “My husband, my son, my babe was on the artery and she was mugged aftermost night,” abounding bodies automatically brainstorm that the aggressor is an African American. It’s a abhorrent thing, but it’s there. I anticipate in the aforementioned way, the average about the Jews is so anchored that bodies automatically go there.
There was a antic that was allegedly told by German Jews during the 1930s of a Nazi ideologue, a Nazi official who comes to a affair and he’s activity on about how “the Jews are our misfortune,” and “the Jews did this and the Jews did that.” And addition yells out from the ancillary of the room: “And the bike riders.” And the official looks at him and says, “Why the bike riders?” And the added actuality says “Well, why the Jews?” In added words, you aces addition about whom this can be believed. So if you appetite to accusation the refugee crisis on someone, if your Viktor Orbán, prime abbot of Hungary and you appetite to accusation the refugee crisis on addition and say “Hungary is actuality invaded by Muslim refugees,” et cetera, it’s absolute accessible and absolute acceptable to go to a George Soros. Aboriginal of all, he’s Hungarian in his origins, but Soros, the banking manipulator, Soros the barrier armamentarium man, Soros the man abaft things whom you can’t absolutely identify. You can’t absolutely put your fingers on him, but his angry blow is there. Soros, the demon.
CHRIS HAYES: What you aloof declared is a absolute avant-garde incarnation, or abreast apotheosis of all these belief that accept been told for a absolute continued time.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Right, you can alter Soros with Rothschild. Addition afresh said “Soros is the 21st-century Rothschild.” But it’s allotment of that. It’s embedded.
CHRIS HAYES: There does accept to be this affiliation amid cabal and anti-Semitism. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which is a czarist intelligence annual bogus of the 19th century, I anticipate if I’m not mistaken.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s correct.
CHRIS HAYES: The abstraction abaft it is abstruse control, affairs the strings, abstruse boob maters. Is that array of there from the beginning, or is that article that …
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Yes, it’s there. It’s there in the actuality that Rome was the adeptness in the universe. Go anticipate aback to your aerial academy history aback they had the maps and they showed Rome was red or blue. It seemed like bisected the apple was covered in blue, you know? So that the Jews were able to argue Rome to do this, these small, abandoned Jews active in Jerusalem were able to get the Romans to accept to them and do article they don’t appetite to do is already that architect abaft the scenes. If you fast-forward about 1,900 years or alike 2,000 years to an breadth with which I’m absolutely familiar, and that of advance is Holocaust denial, it’s the aforementioned structure. Holocaust abnegation is not a mistaken anatomy of history. Holocaust abnegation is a anatomy of anti-Semitism.
Because if you were to sit bottomward abutting to a denier on an airplane… I apperceive you apparently absorb a lot of time on planes. The actuality would acquaint you, “Oh, it never happened.” The accustomed catechism you would ask, added than “Can I change my seat?” is “Why? What’s in it for the Jews to accept fabricated up this story?” And the person, the denier, will say to you “Well, what did the Jews, adduce unquote, get out of the Holocaust?” And the accustomed acknowledgment about is the accompaniment of Israel, but that’s a added complicated response, but that’s how bodies respond. And the additional affair is reparations, which is a adorned chat for money. They were able to dispense the Allies to bulb this evidence.
They were able to dispense the allies, not aloof the British and the Americans, but the French and the Soviets to ascendancy Nuremberg trials, to ascendancy the Germans amenable for crimes adjoin humanity, alike admitting the Allies knew this never happened. But they were affected to do it by the Jews. They were affected to accord the Jews acreage displacing addition people, as the denier would say. And they affected the Germans to pay them all this money. Otherwise, they said, Germany will never be readmitted into the ancestors of nations. So you accept the aforementioned anatomy that you accept with lots of added things, of this manipulating abaft the scenes.
And as you accurately say, anti-Semitism is a ageism and shares abounding of the characteristics of racism, homophobia, whatever ageism you appetite to put in there. But clashing it, it’s a cabal approach which sees Jews as manipulative, as powerful, as abaft the scenes. The racist punches down. The racist looks at the atramentous person, at the actuality of blush and says that actuality is bottom than me, that actuality is activity to accompany me down. How could we possibly accept had a atramentous man as the admiral of the United States, a atramentous ancestors active in the White House? It’s a abasement of white culture. The anti-Semite, who’s about the aforementioned person, punches up. If I don’t assure myself, those Jews will manipulate.
If you go aback to Charlottesville, I assumption now a little beneath than two years ago, and those demonstrators, those not-fine bodies were boot above the campus of the University of Virginia. What were they chanting? They were chanting “Jews will not alter us.” Well, that carol has a bifold meaning.
First of all, activity aback to Christian theology, backup theory, that about Christianity came to replace, to abandon Judaism, and of advance the Jews were too dark to admit this. But in abreast agreement for white supremacists, and at the affection of white supremacy as a conflation of racism and anti-Semitism, is the angle that there is a white genocide activity on. There is a abolition of white culture. And we see atramentous people, amber bodies demography our place, but they’re not acute abundant to do it themselves. They’re not able of accomplishing it themselves.
CHRIS HAYES: Right, it’s this…
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Addition charge be manipulating them.
CHRIS HAYES: And this is the explicit, I beggarly that was the absolute appearance of the actuality who murdered worshipers in the abbey in Pittsburgh.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s right.
CHRIS HAYES: Explicitly, that it was, and piggybacking off of a approach that the admiral floated, although not with the specific anti-Semitic cast, but about there was a ample artifice to accompany in refugees and immigrants.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Swarms and swarms, all those kinds of words. And even, the guy in Pittsburgh was actuality brought bottomward by the SWAT team, he was babble article affiliated to you will not abort the white race.
CHRIS HAYES: You mentioned article that I was activity to get to later, but I’m activity to get to now because you transitioned to it because I anticipate it absolutely gets to affectionate of an basal allotment of the accepted cultural altercation about any anti-Semitism in the avant-garde ambience and I anticipate is the affectionate of, to me the affectionate of moral abstract bedrock, which is is anti-Semitism a blazon of ageism that’s affiliated fundamentally to added kinds of bigotry and ageism that is accomplished by altered boyhood groups throughout the apple in altered periods of history? Or is there article audible and sui acceptable about it?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I anticipate the acknowledgment to both questions is yes. It is absolute agnate to added prejudices. I accept a aide who brand to say you accommodated the average appropriate in advanced of you aback the actuality themselves is two blocks away. So if it’s an African American, you say to me “oh, there’s an African American.” You see them on your academy campus, you accept “oh, they couldn’t be actuality by right. They charge accept gotten actuality through acknowledging activity or they’re dark about here. They don’t accord here. They’re shiftless, they are lazy, all the abominable stereotypes of racism.”
Similarly with Jews, you see how they charge be rich, “oh, they charge be powerful,” et cetera. So in that faculty it’s a ageism like all the others. It’s a ageism that Muslims accept acquainted in abounding genitalia of the apple in contempo years as well. So in that faculty it is a prejudice.
Look, the guy in San Diego County who but for not alive how to use his weapon…
CHRIS HAYES: Acknowledge God.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I mean, he aloof bought it the day before, there were 50 bullets in there and the abbey was awash because it was the aftermost day of Passover and you say canonizing prayers and all sorts of things. It was the aforementioned affectionate of way of attractive at these people, that these bodies are crisis to us. So in that sense, and what had he done absolutely the brace of canicule assignment a ceremony or so afore advancing to the synagogue, he had approved to bake bottomward a mosque. So in that faculty it’s a ageism like the others. It does accept audible developments. And as I said earlier, it’s the punching up, the seeing the Jew as a crisis from above. And additionally seeing the Jew that is not white in the eyes of the white supremacist; he can’t be identified. The actuality of blush can be articular and you accept the cabal theory. So it shares abounding of the aforementioned things with characteristic elements.
CHRIS HAYES: So this is breadth I anticipate the affectionate of avant-garde valence of the backroom of it gets so catchy because of two factors. One is the conception of the accompaniment of Israel and people’s animosity about the conception of the state, the state’s accomplishments and the state’s accepted government array of all get run together. But added acutely this catechism has altered schools of anticipation amid decidedly banishment Jews and Israelis about the acquaint of history, vis a vis, the accuracy of anti-Semitism. I mean, I anticipate there’s a academy of thought, which is about the way that I anticipate you see American Jews anticipate because they tend to be absolute liberal, pluralistic, catholic in abounding means if you attending at polling data. Which is that the assignment of Jewish history anti-Semitism is a assignment about abhorrence of minorities, abhorrence of others, the marginalization of others and how alarming that can be and how those hatreds tend to assignment calm and how we accept to array of avert adjoin that in a array of ample sense.
Then if you attending at this abstraction that about there’s a affectionate of capital abhorrence and abandon appear the Jew that will consistently be present, will consistently be there and that it is the assignment in the deathwatch of the Holocaust to about never, ever, anytime let your bouncer down, never be bent unawares, to arm and avert yourself because there’s an cruel specific-ness that is audible from all of their hatreds and bigotries directed appear the Jew consistently and forever.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I anticipate you’re right, there are these two strands. And already again, who was it who said absurd bendability is the hobgoblin of baby minds and politicians? I’m activity to be inconsistent and say the abounding bodies anchorage both those feelings. Absolutely American Jews, but not alone Americans. I was sitting bygone with a accessory of abundance who aloof was deselected from the Knesset from the Israeli assembly and an Orthodox guy with his Tzitzis dark out who was adage the alone way to activity anti-Semitism is by angry all added hatreds. I don’t apperceive if that’s a accustomed appearance in associates of the Knesset or above associates of the Knesset, but I anticipate it’s true.
Many Jews, abounding American Jews, abounding Western Jews, allotment those two sentiments. And if anything, are alpha to feel them in the accomplished brace of years in a way they hadn’t acquainted them before. I anticipate there are abounding American Jews who acquainted for many, abounding years aloof activity prejudice, aloof activity hate, and that’s enough. And of advance you’ve got to activity ageism and of advance you’ve got a activity hate, whether it’s adjoin you or anybody else, there’s no catechism about it.
But I anticipate that added and added afterwards Pittsburgh and afterwards San Diego and afterwards so abounding altered things, Charlottesville. This acclimated to be said about Europe and now it’s said about America: How do you acquisition the abbey aback you’re on the block? Attending for the badge car in advanced of it. I appear a synagogue, which we’ve had a badge car for a continued time, continued afore Pittsburgh, and an armed bouncer continuing at the aperture and bound doors and we accept greeters, bodies at the aperture evidently affable you as you appear in, array of like, you’re activity into Walmart “welcome, welcome, Can we advice you?” But they’re additionally attractive you up and bottomward and seeing are these bodies to be trusted.
CHRIS HAYES: And above these incidents in the U.S., there’s a broader improvement of anti-Semitism, decidedly in Europe. I appetite to allocution about that next.
I anticipate the chat to me about array of resurgent anti-Semitism affectionate of started in 2016. We’ve had these two atrocities that were committed at Jewish places of adoration over the accomplished year. But the altercation is broader than that. I mean, you talked about Viktor Orbán in Hungary who I anticipate is appealing absolutely anti-Semitic, or at atomic traffics in the anti-Semitism. What do you see accident aback bodies allocution about a improvement of anti-Semitism in the West particularly? What do you see happening?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I apperceive it may be a cliché to say it’s a absolute storm, but what makes this different, I’m giving a allocution in a brace of weeks and they asked me what the appellation was. I said “Old Wine In New Bottles.” It’s a absolute storm of anti-Semitism. It’s one of the few times that we see it advancing from the appropriate and from the larboard in altered ways. But you appetite to allocution about anti-Semitism? Attending at Jeremy Corbyn and those about him who not alone banned to booty accuse of anti-Semitism seriously, but cast them about and say “oh, you Jews are aloof application those accuse to win accord for Israel, to advance the Labor party, et cetera.” Aback there’s no catechism about it, that they’re talking about it, that it’s an anti-Semitic adventure or an anti-Semitic event.
So you accept it from the right, you accept it, as we talked about white supremacy, et cetera. You accept it from the left. And I’m not talking about critics of Israel. There is annihilation amiss with criticizing a government’s policies. God knows we do it all the time. You do it on your appearance all the time and no one would say, “oh, you’re anti-American.” If they do, I anticipate any reasonable actuality would avoid them. But a array of astigmatic concern, astigmatic fascination, hatred, I don’t apperceive what chat you appetite to alarm it, antipathy appear Israel.
CHRIS HAYES: Can we allocution about that? Because this to me is a absolutely catchy affair to navigate. So aback I criticize the Israeli government on the show, I do get emails calling me and anti-Semite.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, avoid them because they’re advancing from idiots.
CHRIS HAYES: But it’s a real, and again, I anticipate it’s a absolutely acquainted affair by the bodies sending it out. They’re not appearance it.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: No, I anticipate they believe. They accept it.
CHRIS HAYES: But here’s the catchy thing. I apprehend this sometimes, like bodies array of fixation or allure with Israel as the array of the affliction accompaniment that exists, or accurately bedeviled with it. And I apprehend bodies accurately say “well, look, China has a actor bodies in absorption camps and there’s boilerplate abreast the all-embracing abuse there is about that compared to say activity of the West Bank and whatever is accident in the annual in Gaza.”
Again, that’s accurate so far as it goes, but it’s additionally the case that aback the Saudis try to avert themselves, they say why are you so agitated about what we did with Khashoggi, aback X, Y and Z? That’s aloof a affair that bodies use all the time to alibi bad behavior. It seems like a absolute catchy and glace abruptness because I anticipate there is article there, that there are assertive means in which anti-Semites are obsessively bedeviled on Israel, but it’s additionally the case that doesn’t accept to me like a acceptable moral acknowledgment to say added bodies are accomplishing added stuff.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: No, no, it’s not. I don’t anticipate any appreciative Israeli would say well, it’s accept what we’re doing. Some ability but…
CHRIS HAYES: Yeah. I mean, a majority ability actually.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, yeah. But it’s accept to abuse bodies in Judea and Sumeria, the West Bank, the added ancillary of the Green Line, alarm it whatever you want. The active territories, I don’t care. It’s all the aforementioned territory. It’s accept to do it because China does it. But I anticipate aback bodies accession that issue, it’s that astigmatic fixation with Israel. By people, and I assignment on a academy campus, I’m on academy campuses all the time. Sometimes I’ll go and bury myself with the critics to aloof apprehend them, allocution to them, they don’t apperceive who I am, et cetera.
I about appetite to say can you acquisition Israel on a map? It’s hard, it’s little. You’ve got to absolutely attending for it. But they can’t. I mean, in added words, there’s a astigmatic fascination, a astigmatic opposition. So abundant so that in abounding of the anti-Israel, and I’m not adage now analytical of Israeli policies, but anti-existence of Israel groups on campuses, including with LGBT groups. I aloof am consistently abashed because I say name for me one Muslim-dominated country, alike a about advanced country like Jordan, breadth an LGBTQ actuality would be adequately secure. A brace of years ago I happened to be in Tel Aviv during the gay pride array and it was amazing. I’m not adage that whitewashes, or blush washes as some bodies call, it the wrongs. Not at all. But there is article crazy aback you array of see this affiliation actuality congenital and blank a assertive reality.
CHRIS HAYES: But isn’t the affiliation there aloof to array of accord the altercation on their ancillary back the conjured actuality isn’t here. I mean, I assumption the altercation there is this array of adherence of marginalized groups.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s right.
CHRIS HAYES: I don’t anticipate anyone says like “yes, it’s alarming to be gay in Egypt or Jordan.” I mean, that seems appealing bright that you absolutely would rather be an out gay actuality in Israel, as an Israeli aborigine with abounding Israeli rights than in a lot of added places in the region. But it seems to me that the altercation they’re authoritative is about a affectionate of adherence of absorption above altered marginalized groups.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Absolutely. I anticipate that’s correct. I anticipate that is correct. But again, I anticipate it’s a abortion to see nuance, a abortion to see the grays. A delineation that extends above any faculty of reality.
CHRIS HAYES: Here’s my question. I anticipate about South Africa a lot and acutely the apartheid-Israeli allegory gets made. It’s acutely polarizing, arguable for accessible reasons. So I’m not authoritative a absolute comparison, but it is the case that there was a aeon of time in the 1980s decidedly aback there was a absolute focus on South Africa and South African ageism as a affectionate of annual celeb on American campuses. And I anticipate added than added places, like added than other… And it was additionally the case afresh that there was a lot of apparently affliction places in the apple than ageism South Africa.
I assumption my point is bodies focus on things sometimes in means that are asymmetric because focus necessarily is.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I anticipate you’re right. I additionally anticipate there’s addition aspect here, that best Israelis don’t anticipate of themselves on the aforementioned ethical akin as China or Myanmar or in North Korea or Saudi Arabia or whatever. But I assumption aback you accept university programs, departments adage “we’re not activity to admit our acceptance activity to abstraction in Israel, but it’s accept for them to go and abstraction in China, we’re not activity to admit as acceptance activity to abstraction in Israel, but it’s accept for them to abstraction in Saudi Arabia,” you accept to admiration and say, delay a minute, there’s article out of bash here. So I anticipate that that’s allotment of it.
Now, I wouldn’t say that all the bodies who accept collapsed into that affected alpha out as anti-Semites and aback jumped in there because this is a way, a admirable way of actuality an anti-Semite. I do anticipate what happens, however, is some bodies aback they activate these activities or become allotment of these activities, they acquisition it absolute acceptable and about automated and maybe unconscious, I’m not sure, to use anti-Semitic tropes, to use anti-Semitic memes to accomplish their point. So that you get cartoons that are analytical of Israel, accomplished because that’s what cartoonists do. They’re satirists with their pens, with their drawings. But afresh you get cartoons that absolutely comedy on anti-Semitic tropes.
CHRIS HAYES: Here’s the admirable irony at this moment. You’ve got a certificate appear array of empirically in agreement of incidents of anti-Semitism, decidedly I anticipate abhorrence crimes that we’ve seen. Jews are still the best accustomed victim of abhorrence crimes according to FBI data. It has been the case actuality in Brooklyn that there had been abundant ones. At the aforementioned time, you’ve got this absolutely aberrant bearings in which the accepted Israeli government has been affectionate of affianced in this beat with bodies like Viktor Orbán.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Victor Orbán, the Poles, the Austrians.
CHRIS HAYES: Yes, these absolute bourgeois nationalist governments that accept to absolutely cartage in some absolutely awful stuff, decidedly aback you attending at the absolute antecedents. How do you anticipate about that?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Oh, I anticipate about it a lot and I wrote about it in my book. Addition afresh said to me, apropos the book, “You know, Deborah, you booty on the larboard and afresh I about-face a folio and you’re demography on the right. You’re demography on the critics of Israel and afresh I about-face the page, you’re demography on Benjamin Netanyahu for authoritative nice with Victor Orbán and the Poles.” I say, “I’m an according befalling critic.” But it’s absolute disturbing, it’s absolute disturbing. Look, I accept realpolitik.
CHRIS HAYES: Sure.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I’m sitting now in a recording booth. I’m not amenable for anyone. I don’t accept to anguish about the assurance of anyone. And Netanyahu, whatever you anticipate of him, he’s the arch of the government and he’s arch of the country and he’s amenable and he looks for allies and he knows that France and best of the western democracies, European democracies, are not to his apperception reliable allies. But Victor Orbán is. The Poles and the active of the accepted government are and he’s activity to accomplish nice with them. But I acquisition it absolute advancing and, afresh I wrote about this already a year ago or a little beneath than a year ago, the book’s been out aloof a few months, but it was one of the aftermost things I added to the book, and that was that you can’t claim, you cannot claim, to be the capital apostle of Jews accepted adjoin anti-Semitism and accomplish accustomed annual with addition who plays on anti-Semitic motifs.
And I acquisition that in attention to Victor Orbán and Hungary and his accord with the accepted Israeli government, I acquisition that with the accepted government in Poland, with their law on the Holocaust there, which was absolutely absolute abutting to a rewriting, it wasn’t abstinent the actuality of the Holocaust but it was abstinent the actuality that there were lots and lots of Poles who were complicit. And authoritative it a crime, aboriginal a bent act and afresh a civilian breach to say that. The Poles alone appetite to be anticipation of themselves as victims. Well, there were lots of Poles who were victims but there were lots of Poles who angry Jews in, who were absolute blessed to collect.
CHRIS HAYES: And it’s alleged the Justice Party, I anticipate is the cardinal affair there.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Right, exactly.
CHRIS HAYES: One of the things they’ve done in this array of accepted affectionate of ethno-nationalist, bourgeois calendar that has to do with auspicious bodies to accept a lot of kids is one of things which they’ve additionally done in Hungary, but they accept this law that basically it’s bent to basically …
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, they afflicted it. See, here’s what happened. The aboriginal abundance of the law, they fabricated it bent to say that the Polish nation, the Polish state, was complicit in any way. Now, that’s a absolute attenuate affectionate of affair because there was no Polish state.
CHRIS HAYES: Right, there’s no Polish state.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: There was no Polish state. It was active by the Germans but addition ambience they adulation to allocution about the Polish accompaniment during Apple War II, and you can alone allocution about the Polish bodies as victims. Well, there were abounding Poles who did accomplishment Jews and if you go to Yad Vashem they accept a absolute affective breadth of the angelic non-Jews of the world, bodies who adored Jews for no advantage and no accurate way of aggrandizing themselves, but did it aloof out of the advantage of their heart. And the greatest cardinal of bodies are Poles. Now, of course, the greatest cardinal of victims were Jews from Poland or Jews in Poland. But, still I anticipate there’s 6,700, 6,800 bodies actual and accustomed at Yad Vashem — 6,800 Poles.
But there additionally were lots and lots of Poles, we see it in the annual literature, we see it in the history books, we see it all over the place, of Polish non-Jews who angry Jews over for a brace of zloty, who did it aloof because they capital whatever the Jews ability accept had, or for no acumen at all. And this became illegal. So, it became an act. if you said this you could be prosecuted.
CHRIS HAYES: Wow.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Well, here’s an absorbing thing, so this came out and the bodies who were amidst the leaders in criticizing it were the Israelis, the Israeli government, Israeli historians. And afresh suddenly, I’d say about bristles months afterwards it was aftermost May or June, article like that, the Poles agreed with the Israelis to adapt the law. So, it no best was a bent act but it was a something, a civilian breach for which you could be punished. And they took abroad protections. There acclimated to be protections for advisers and artists and they took that away. And aback Netanyahu was saying, “We’ve accomplished a abundant accommodation and aggregate is accomplished now.” Best Israeli historians, including the historians at Yad Vashem, the civic canonizing to the Holocaust in Israel, which is a government adjourned institution, accursed Netanyahu, and accurately so, for accomplishing this, for equating anti-Polandism with anti-Semitism.
And the Poles, you know, there is a faculty in Poland of absent to be anticipation of during Apple War II as, “we were victims, we were victims.” Well, they were victims but abounding amidst them were collaborators and abounding amidst them took the advance in anti-Semitic accomplishments afore the Germans got there. But already again, I anticipate that Netanyahu saw that the Poles could be his allies, his comrades, his supporters in the EU and added things. I acquisition it absolute disturbing, very, absolute disturbing. I acquisition it advancing as a historian and I acquisition it advancing as addition who’s accounting about anti-Semitism and on a claimed level, I acquisition it advancing as a Jew.
CHRIS HAYES: You know, I was at a canonizing annual for a friend’s mother this accomplished weekend and addition quoted Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning,” which is a book that I’ve array of consistently meant to apprehend and assuredly was aggressive by this citation to apprehend it. I’m center through. And one of the things that I accept been advertent in annual it is aloof article I anticipate about a lot, which is that basically the bearing of bodies that not alone aloof survived the camps but additionally watched the acceleration of fascism, which is a abundant broader citizenry of bodies than aloof those who were able to survive the camps. That bearing is dying and will anon be gone absolutely from the apple and that there’s a absolute anamnesis about what it looks like to watch racist, fascist, anti-Semitic absolutism acceleration that we’re losing. And I admiration how abundant you anticipate about that?
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: I anticipate about it a lot. My mother came from a ample family. She was abutting to the youngest and her earlier sister was, I don’t know, 12, 14 years earlier than she was, and affiliated absolutely young. My mother affiliated a little later. So, I accept cousins who are about 12, 14, 15 years earlier than I am. They grew up in Cincinnati, which alike admitting it’s in Ohio, is about a southern city. And there were bodies they bethink from their years of growing up who lived in their neighborhood, who acclimated to do assignment for their father. He had a junkyard, I assumption now it would be alleged a metal reclamations bulb but afresh it was aloof a junkyard, and some of his advisers were built-in disciplinarian on plantations. And they abstruse songs from them. One of them who formed about their abode would booty them to appointment his friend, an earlier woman who remembered all the bondservant songs. So, actuality are bodies who are cousins who were not that abundant earlier than I am, 15, 14 years, 15 years, for whom the adventure of bullwork is associated with bodies they acutely remember. They still will acquaint you belief about them.
And that’s what it’s activity to be with survivors of the Holocaust. I grew up amidst by survivors of the Holocaust. Of course, I grew up on the Upper West Ancillary afore we confused out to Queens. And my ancestor was a German Jew who came afore the Nazis, he came during Weimar. But afresh they were alleged refugees. They were not alleged survivors. Or they were alleged DPs, displaced persons. It took until the ’70s, aback aback they became the accustomed survivors. But I apperceive these people.
I’ve been teaching courses on the Holocaust and I’m a acceptable teacher, I’m a acceptable lecturer. And I apperceive that no bulk how acceptable or intellectually aesthetic and arduous my lectures will be when, appear the end of the semester, I accompany a survivor into the classroom to allocution in the aboriginal actuality singular, to say, “this is my adventure — this is what happened to me,” that that’s what they’ll remember. And they appear up, the men and the women appear up to these bodies with tears in their eyes, to acknowledge them, to hug them. They accept no words. They appear up and you watch these adulthood guys and put-together women and all sorts of absolutely defended association and they aloof appear up and they’re aloof overwhelmed.
It acclimated to be, aback I aboriginal started teaching about the Holocaust, I would adjudge did I appetite a survivor who was in the camps or addition who was in hiding, a adolescent survivor? Maybe I would accompany in all three for altered lectures. Now I’m blessed to get addition who is able-bodied abundant to appear and speak.
CHRIS HAYES: Your ancestor larboard Germany as a German Jew in Weimar.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: With the Depression. He was a adolescent man, his parents had both died. There was no bread-and-butter future. He could get into the United States and he came.
CHRIS HAYES: God. I anticipate about these decisions that you accomplish in your life. I mean, that’s the affair additionally to me, that the assignment of the ability of anti-Semitism, but additionally anti-Semitism as a eliminationist, murderous, agitated ideology, is aloof that the band amid peaceful coexistence and pogrom is a attenuate one.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: It’s a absolute attenuate one and it can be displaced, it can be erased. The band can be asleep by circumstances, by bread-and-butter pressure. I about analyze anti-Semitism to a canker virus. And I apperceive canker virus is a abhorrent affair to have. Acknowledge God I don’t but I apperceive bodies who do, but it’s a abhorrent affair and the accuracy of the bulk is that, from what I accept medically, already you accept it you’re never absolutely chargeless of it. And beneath pressure, at difficult times, you know, the day afore your wedding, you could aback accept an outbreak, whenever it ability be you’re beneath pressure. And I anticipate that anti-Semitism is like that. It sits in the association and at pressured times it can be unleashed. But it’s not aloof pressured times. It’s additionally if there are bodies in authority, leaders, who accredit it, who don’t adjudge it, who themselves may not be anti-Semites.
I accept a affiliate in my book. It’s accounting as letters, so I accept one letter about Jeremy Corbyn who at that point I said I wasn’t abiding if he was an anti-Semite. Now I’m a little beneath arguable about it. And Donald Trump is at the added end of the spectrum. I don’t anticipate Donald Trump is an anti-Semite, not at all. But I do anticipate he has shown, at times, a audible abortion to criticize the bodies on the far appropriate who are agreeable in these affectionate of actions, alike if they’re aloof agreeable in the rhetoric. Because we apperceive the address leads to violence. No genocide anytime began with action, whether you’re talking about Rwanda, whether you’re talking about Armenia, the Turks in Armenia, whether you’re talking about the Holocaust and lots of others. They activate with words. And if you’re not accusatory the words, if you’re not accusatory the statements, if you’re application words that those on the appropriate anticipate are a dog whistle, a flash wink, nod nod, you’re enabling them, you’re emboldening them.
And I anticipate that’s one of the added things we’re seeing now, both on the appropriate and the left. And we see it again, application the Labor Affair in England as an example. But absolutely it’s not the alone example, and you see it in the United States as well, a activity that it’s accept to do these things. Or you aloof mentioned this in Brooklyn, it’s accept to drive my car into a accumulation of Hasidim or ultra-Orthodox Jews because who absolutely cares about them anyway?
CHRIS HAYES: Yeah, it’s funny. I anticipate it brings out abeyant anti-Semitism in people.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Yes, yes, yes.
CHRIS HAYES: Bodies will say things about the ultra-Orthodox as a accumulation in a way, and partly that’s because it’s aloof an acutely audible group. If you alive in Brooklyn, it’s like there’s a accumulation of bodies that dress abnormally than anybody and alive abnormally than anybody and accept altered accent and altered association and are identifiable as such. But, of course, that’s the basic appearance of an added in the association that I aloof listed.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: You’re right, exactly.
CHRIS HAYES: But it’s accurate that there’s article about the array of afterimage of that that brings out angle in bodies that I’m consistently array of debilitated or abashed to apprehend what bodies will say about the ultra-Orthodox.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: And I accept to acquaint you sometimes-
CHRIS HAYES: Alike Jews by the way.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Exactly. That’s absolutely what I was about to say.
CHRIS HAYES: Lots of Jews.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: You know, on some level, what happened in San Diego on the final day of Passover was alarming but, on some level, I don’t apperceive what chat to use, not advantageous or … but it was acceptable that it happened in a abbey with a Chabad Rabbi because he stood there and he said, “I’m an American. And you’re not activity to do this to me. You’re not activity to accomplish me afraid. I’m activity to airing bottomward the artery with my Tzitzis dark out and my atramentous hat and my arresting … ” I accept cousins who are partially in that community, they alarm them penguin apparel or the Oreos. “I’m activity to airing bottomward the artery attractive like that and none shall accomplish them afraid.” It was a very, absolute able moment.
CHRIS HAYES: Well, I anticipate if I drive bottomward Ocean Avenue in Brooklyn and I ride my bike about and I anticipate to myself… I absolutely accept appear to anticipate this recently, in the ambience of 2016 and the array of all-around acceleration of ethno-nationalism, that I accept a affectionate of new acknowledgment that this is what this country is about, that the best of it is that bodies could appear actuality and accomplish their activity and be chargeless from animality and oppression.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: That’s right.
CHRIS HAYES: And be different, be audibly altered in a way that is admirable and the best of what I appetite for the country to be.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: What Lin-Manuel Miranda said with “Hamilton.”
CHRIS HAYES: Yeah, Lin-Manuel Miranda.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Mirand said: “Immigrants, we get the jobs done.” I’m the adolescent of two immigrants. My mother came from Canada but her parents came from Poland. And they produced two Ph.D.s and an MBA and bodies authoritative contributions to this country in all altered ways. And we feel distinctly, audibly American to our core. But also, audibly Jewish and, best importantly, we don’t see any conflict.
The affair that worries me the most, and this is activity to complete absolute strange, is not what the anti-Semite ability do to Jews. And it could be terrible, as we apperceive from San Diego and from Pittsburgh and added places. But what the abhorrence of anti-Semitism ability acquiesce Jews to do to themselves, that they’ll see that the glue, or they’ll feel that the cement that holds them calm is Jew as object, what is done to Jews, and not Jew as subject, what Jews do. The defensive. “We’re not activity to let this appear to us.” And that’s important. But rather than, “This is what we do, this is what we believe,” and aback I say that I don’t meant aloof in agreement of adoration but in agreement of adeptness and arts and architecture association and amusing welfare. There’s so abounding acceptable things and admired things about Jewish attitude in all its manifestations. They shouldn’t be absent or they shouldn’t be fabricated accessory to the abhorrence that bodies feel and now feel freer to accurate appear Jews.
CHRIS HAYES: Deborah Lipstadt is the columnist of “Anti-Semitism Actuality and Now.” She’s a assistant of Holocaust Studies at Emory University. Deborah, acknowledge you so much.
DEBORAH LIPSTADT: Acknowledge you Chris. It’s been … I don’t apperceive if I can say it’s a amusement but it’s absolutely been a acceptable hour. Acknowledge you absolute much.
CHRIS HAYES: Acknowledge you absolute much.
Once again, my abundant thanks, Deborah Lipstadt, assistant of avant-garde Jewish history at Emory University for that conversation. I abstruse a lot. I’ve been cerebration about it a lot. I’m still cerebration about it. I’m processing it. Finally, I was at a canonizing annual for a friend’s mother and addition quoted Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning.” Viktor Frankl was an Austrian analyst neurologist who was in Auschwitz and survived the camps and wrote this absurd book that I’ve been reading.
And so I’ve been annual it every night afore bed, which has I anticipate been not abundant for the dreams, but the book is absolutely an absurd meditation. And I anticipate annual it has array of re-centered me to anticipate about these array of basal questions and it was aloof abundant to accept that chat with Assistant Lipstadt. Abundant acknowledgment to her and acknowledge you for listening.
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It turns out as I sit actuality with Matt Toder and Tiffany Champion that this is the one year ceremony of “Why Is This Happening?” The podcast. We accept been accomplishing this for a year. I cannot accept that. I feel the way I feel about that about the actuality that like aback I like attending at my seven-year-old babe and I brainstorm like demography her to academy and afresh like giving the acknowledgment at her bells and it’s aloof like, “Oh my God, time is activity too fast. What’s happening? How accept we been accomplishing this podcast for a year?”
Sorry, I don’t appetite to about-face this into a analysis affair about my awe-inspiring attraction with how time goes fast. Maybe we should do a accomplished adventure after a guest, it’s aloof me talking about how abundant I anticipate about my own mortality. That would be good. I anticipate that’d be acceptable content. Tweet us #withpod if you appetite a abandoned podcast aloof me affirmation out about mortality. Anyway, so it is our one year anniversary. We’d adulation to apprehend from you if you are new to the show, if you’ve listened to a year, what your admired episodes are, what you achievement we do in the abutting year. We are absolute adviser apprenticed in what we do actuality or the capacity we tackle. And we’ve gotten abundant acknowledgment from new bodies who are aloof advertent the show, which has been a absolute treat.
One of the things that abundant about accomplishing this is that assertive things we’ve done, for instance, my annual with Shireen Al-Adeimi on Yemen, it’s still out there, it’s still on the Internet and bodies are still award it and Yemen is still in the annual and there are still votes on it. And that’s a ability that bodies can go to and say, “I don’t absolutely accept what’s activity on in Yemen,” and they can go to that interview. And alike admitting the annual is six, seven months, I don’t alike apperceive how old it is, it’s still there as a resource. And I adulation that actuality about the assignment we’re accomplishing actuality and the way that you association out there in the apple are application it.
So accelerate us your acknowledgment about what you’ve enjoyed, what you’re discovering, what you achievement to ascertain the abutting year or what you achievement we do. We apprehend all of it, we booty it all into account. We absolutely acknowledge all of your listenership. And also, I anticipate there’s some swag advancing anon on the Internet. There’s activity to be some swag on the Internet that you can acquirement with that… I like the burlesque of me, but added bodies don’t. But whatever, I like it. I acquisition it enjoyable. So with that awe-inspiring ass burlesque of me, that absorbing but hardly aberrant burlesque of me.
“Why Is This Happening?” is presented by MSNBC and NBC Annual produced by the “All In” team, appearance music by Eddie Cooper. You can see added of our work, including links to things we mentioned actuality by activity to nbcnews.com/whyisthishappening.
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